Page 1 of Even more shocking than the Terrorist Attack on America ???

I wonder how long this thread will last? Its certainly controversial!

Before you think about closing this thread mod, I would like to point out that I am `not` a racist (sic).
I have two Arab friends from the UAE who I would trust implicitly with my life! (until tonight)

At 8pm this evening, my whole life turned upside down.
After seeing C4 news, I am EXTREMELY concerned about the Muslims in our country. I think others will be too.

I just had a most shocking experience by catching the Spokesman for the British section of the Muslim Youth Organisation on British terrestrial TV News - Abdul Rehman Saleem.

If these views are typical of young Muslims in this country, I for one demand they are removed from my country immediately.

(Right Click / Save As... to download) DONT CLICK ON IT DIRECTLY!

http://uk.geocities.com/oh_shit_were_going_to_die/british_muslim_youth_org_c4.rm (291,899 bytes - Not for those with heart problems and who live near Birmingham)

I will be contacting the press and police tomorrow morning and finding out how to have him arrested.
We`ll soon be able to see if Tony Blair has any balls. I say he hasn’t!

The response will be posted here if a mod hasn’t deleted it!

I feel in the topsy-turvy politically correct country that we have, I am more likely to be arrested for `inciting racial hatred` than this bastard.

For those who don’t have the ability to hear Real Audio files, the interview goes something like this...

"We UK Muslims will kill anyone who kills another Muslim, even if its Bin Laden"
"You infidels cannot avenge because you are unworthy scum"

OK - So I’m paraphrasing a bit!

We do-gooders, don’t half kid ourselves at times that life is dandy!

To the Yanks: Ask yourselves - "Why should US Muslims think differently to ours?"

I am scared and I don’t mind admitting it.

UnHappyExHeadOwner :(- --->------<

This item was edited on Friday, 14th September 2001, 18:34

>>If these views are typical of young Muslims in this country, I for one demand they are removed from my country immediately

They are not - I am a young practising muslim who goes to the mosque regularly, observes his fast and also has a lot of sympathy with suffering muslims around the world. However, neither myself nor any of my muslim friends and relatives (as far as I am aware) feel the same as this person.
No muslim I personally know is happy about what happened on Tuesday.

This bloke is either all mouth acting hard for the camera or one of the very small minority who actually believes what he is saying.

But then I am sure there is a minority of Irish people who hate the English just as strongly - enough to actually set off bombs in this country. Something Muslims have not done yet and I hope never will. I work in the City of London as do many muslim and non muslim friends of mine so I am just as scared of these kinds of nutters as you are.

One thing I would also like to point out is that to the best of my knowledge neither myself nor any muslim I know has ever been asked for or donated money to any extremist group. Muslims certainly donnot organise fundraisers for these kind of groups in the same way that Irish Americans do for the IRA etc. These groups are normally funded by rich Arab businessmen or governments with an Anti-American political axe to grind.

If you want to extend your thinking all the way you would have to kick out all the Christians of the same faith as the IRA as well. But I am sure the majority of them feel the same about the IRA as British Muslims do about Arab terrorists.

I hope the above will help you reconsider your fear of British Muslims.

I haven`t heard personally of someone expressing opinions such as that attributed to the representative of the Muslim Youth organisation, however I do believe that there are a couple of aspects of this which should be mentioned.

First, the right to freedom of expression and speech. The film "The American President" summed it up quite well by saying that the right to freedom of speech means that you must defend the right to speak of someone who is expressing a view that you would spend your life trying to oppose. When you suppress someone`s views, you start down a very slippery slope to censure and suppression.

Second, incitement. The right to freedom of speech is not without bounds. Where someone is expressing a view that can be reasonably expected to result in actions of others which ARE illegal, then that is termed incitement. It is an extremely difficult charge to prove in court, but it might be applicable in this case if the result of this statement can be seen to be ending in a crime.

So if someone says that, should a Muslim be killed in the actions that will certainly come in the next few days/weeks/months, then Muslims in Britain or elsewhere should try and kill those who participated in those actions, there may be a case to answer for incitement. This would especially be true where the person is shown to be in a position to exert influence over people who might then go and do what they say. A spokesman for the British section of the Muslim Youth Organisation could be considered to be in such a position.

I have to say though, that there is a danger that certain people on both "sides" are trying to make this situation into a conflict between Muslims and the Western culture of Europe and North America. It is NOT true to say that we should hold all Muslims, or indeed those of Middle-Eastern descent, as in some way responsible for what happened in the USA. Likewise, all westerners cannot be held collectively responsible for the actions taken by various national governments over the course of the last fifty years which have undoubtedly resulted in the inhumane treatment of some peoples in the Middle East.

General assignment of such collective responsibility would achieve one of the objectives of the terrorists themselves.

Instead, we should only hold responsible those who helped support, plan, or conduct this act of terror. An important distinction made by Tom Clancy in the novel "Sum of All Fears" was made near then end of the book. These terrorists should not to be classified as Muslim terrorists, or Middle-Eastern terrorists, or Palestinian terrorists, but merely terrorists. As such they are criminals whose religion, ethnicity or homeland is irrelevant to the crime they have committed, despite anything they might think or use to justify their actions.

Islam is, in many ways, a far more tolerant and hospitable religion than Christianity (I personally am Church of Scotland) or the Jewish faith. The use of this religion as justification for acts of terror is a malignant twisting of the faith which is condemned by most Muslims.
We should always keep in mind the ultimate motives for those who preach hate in the name of a religion. How "christian" were the Inquisition who burned people at the stake and tortured others for lack of religious purity? Or the Crusades who butchered and pillaged indiscriminately? They too used religion as justification for evil acts.

We should remember that any Muslims or arabs persecuted without justification for the acts perpetrated in New York, Washignton and Pittsburgh, will be just as much victims of this horror as the workers in the WTC, or the firemen who have been lost.

I`m going to sign off now as it`s almost midday here (Germany) which is the specified time for the three minutes silence.

I`m glad that someone is defending the large majority of peaceful muslims.

I have friends that are muslim and as umem says they are also horrified.

All of us, no matter of colour, sex, religion have to condemn the attacks, and to unite to become stronger, so that the small minority of evil can see that their fight is futile because most people will live together in peace and harmony.

One poitn that i think has been neglected is that there would have been muslims within the buildings who have now died, no doubt the fundamentalist will say they are martyrs, but surely to be a martyr you have to believe in the cause, and simply by being there in the heart of american and worlwide capitalism they did not.

Lets all come together to remember the dead whoever they were.

The one thing I forgot to mention is that I have never heard of this Young Muslim organisation before.

Is it a large group, does it have many members?
Unlike Christianity, Islam does not have any form of official controlling hierarchy such as the Vatican or the Church of England etc. So, someone speaking on behalf of the organisation cannot be said to be speaking for other muslims in the way the Archbishop or Pope might speak on behalf of their followers.

Every muslim is responsible for his own actions using the Koran as his guide - which clearly forbids the taking of innocent lives. If a muslim is unsure about any point of Islamic Law he can seek an opinion from someone who has studied the Koran in more detail and is therefore more qualified to issue a Fatwa. That Fatwa is only an OPINION of that scholar and does NOT become binding on other muslims or become law. It is not like a judgement issued by an English court or a ruling issued by the Pope.

So, when people like Osama and Khomeini issue so called `Fatwas` , the only people who take them seriously is the western media and a small band of hardcore followers - who only account for a very tiny minority of the world`s muslims.

Thanx for all your detailed replies guys. I am very busy righting the world at he moment ;) I`m informing just about everyone I can think of about the Abdul Rehman Saleem interview.
Forgive me, but as some points cross, I will try to answer them as a whole, rather than with individual posts.

---

:(- --< IN RESPONSE TO "If these views are typical of young Muslims in this country, I for one demand they are removed from my country immediately"

:)---< "They are not - I am a young practising Muslim who goes to the mosque regularly, observes his fast and also has a lot of sympathy with suffering Muslims around the world. However, neither myself nor any of my Muslim friends and relatives (as far as I am aware) feel the same as this person. No Muslim I personally know is happy about what happened on Tuesday. This bloke is either all mouth acting hard for the camera or one of the very small minority who actually believes what he is saying. But then I am sure there is a minority of Irish people who hate the English just as strongly - enough to actually set off bombs in this country. Something Muslims have not done yet and I hope never will."

:(- ---< You say this is not the common view of Muslims in the UK... but the passage translated in the Real Audio file was from your Holy book, the Koran!
Can you find Muslim`s who will refute passages in the Koran?
In 1994, I was living near Brixton, South London and knew many Muslims who treated me with total kindness.
This is a scenario of one such gathering with two Muslims of differing strengths of belief + one lapsed Muslim.

Me: "Do you think Salmon Rushdie (Author of the Satan Verses) should be killed?"

Strict Muslim: "Of course! He has brought shame on all Muslims. I would gladly kill him."

So-called Tolerant Muslim: "We would cut him into a thousand pieces."

Lapsed Muslim (A brave thing to be!): "Yes. We have to kill him. It is a Fatwa"

That`s pretty conclusive to me, that no matter whether you believe in the Islamic faith or not, there is an inbuilt control mechanism, operating within the minds of Muslims and ex-Muslims alike.
If a ex-believer, who drinks alcohol, smokes illegal substances, screws women and openly refutes the Koran, would automatically carry out a murder in our country by command, then perhaps they all will!
I would never be so rude (or stupid) to insult the Koran or their followers.
Consequently, I found these people decent law abiding citizens, but had I delved deeper...?
Had I insulted them, or their religion, I probably would not be here to converse with you today!

:)---< "That Fatwa is only an OPINION of that scholar and does NOT become binding on other muslims or become law. It is not like a judgement issued by an English court or a ruling issued by the Pope. So, when people like Osama and Khomeini issue so called `Fatwas` , the only people who take them seriously is the western media and a small band of hardcore followers - who only account for a very tiny minority of the world`s muslims."

:(- ---< Don’t you remember the public demonstrations all over England (most notably Birmingham), where Muslims of all creeds, condemned Salmon Rushdie and burnt effigies of him?
Their Islamic women do if you don’t! Such hysteria and religious fervour culminated in assaults on their own women!
Islamic women marching along side the men and were not wearing Yashmaks, were physically attacked and spat on.

I do not wish to tarnish all Muslims with the same brush, as I haven’t met them all. I have met about 20 well, in my adult life and I don’t know any who would walk on by past Salmon Rushdie in the street, as if he was a total stranger. Do you?

Do you recall the support our Government got from the UK Islamic community when the Gulf war was in progress?
I do - It was ZERO. No support whatsoever! Not one solitary voice.

Would you also like to explain this to us infidels?

(Right Click / Save As... to download)
http://uk.geocities.com/oh_shit_were_going_to_die/hate_in_the_uk_classrooms.jpg

This is an excerpt from the public letters page of today’s UK Daily Telegraph.

Don’t you also think it is strange that there is no mention of the C4 interview, I posted here, in our newspapers or TV media?
I, for one, totally expected this type of news blackout.

Like the British media, I also understand why the powers-at-be don’t want these views aired. Perhaps this is also happening in the US at the moment?

:)---< "When you suppress someone`s views, you start down a very slippery slope to censure and suppression. Second, incitement".

:(- ---< I agree with your sentiments on incitement/freedom-of-speech.
Where I draw the line, as you probably do is where they touch, which was clearly the case last night.

So let me make it clear to everyone here...I REALLY DONT WANT TO STIR UP RACIAL HATRED. IT WOULD BE POINTLESS AND OBSCENE.

:)---< Islam is, in many ways, a far more tolerant and hospitable religion than Christianity (I personally am Church of Scotland) or the Jewish faith. The use of this religion as justification for acts of terror is a malignant twisting of the faith which is condemned by most Muslims.

:(- ---< Basically, there are no reform variants of Islam.
EVERY different strain of Islam claims to be the most orthodox and unchanging interpreters of Islam that exists.
This means that there has never been an idea of plurality that ever took place in the Islamic world. The ideas of Manicheaism, present in Judaism and Christianity in small doses, are a key part of Islam.
Manicheaism posits the God of Good fighting the Satan of Evil; there is nothing in-between.
Tolerance is NOT my experience!!!

Democracy has never flourished in Muslim countries because its values are directly opposed to Islamic values.
Think about it for a moment.
There are NO democracies among any of the 22 Arab countries and there haven`t been any democracies there in the last 20 years.
Compare that record to any other area in the rest of the world and you`ll realise how unique and against-the-trend-of-the-world that is!

Western values of individual liberty and live-and-let-live (TOLERANCE) are foreign to these countries and when Islam was in formation, it was the supreme power in that part of the world.

That`s why there is no idea of compromise in political relations with the West. It`s why the Palestinian-Israeli peace talks broke down in 2000; the Palestinians were not willing to concede on even ONE point of their political program. It`s why Anwar Sadat was murdered for his crime of making peace with Israel.

I feel like a fascist when I talk about mass civilian reprisals but to think of the Arab peoples in the way that we think of Europeans (even Russians) is just plain wrong.

America is being punished because it is the antithesis of traditional Islamic values and seeks to promote liberating ideas around the world that are regarded as the height of evil by Islamic fundamentalists.

:)---< "I`m glad that someone is defending the large majority of peaceful muslims. I have friends that are muslim and as umem says they are also horrified. All of us, no matter of colour, sex, religion have to condemn the attacks, and to unite to become stronger, so that the small minority of evil can see that their fight is futile because most people will live together in peace and harmony."

:(- ---< Yo! But don’t worry if the worse happens...

In WW2 we interned Germans, Italians along with others.
We did so even thought there was no issued threats of repercussions from them.
We treated them very well, I know as my father (as a boy) used to deliver them groceries and chatted to them. I also have a passion for WW2 history, so I can confirm this as the norm.
Our interned `non-prisoners-of-war` were happy and lived a content existence producing food on farms for the local villagers and the war effort.
After the war, many stayed here and married British women.

Equally well treated were the prisoners of war, who merged with us also.
Would Muslims treat our prisoners this well?
No. They would follow barbaric practises such as the Japanese and Germans were known for, but with even more relish.
You can’t surely deny this?

I am not advocating acts of violence on any Muslims civilians. I would TOTALLY CONDEMN this.
They must be rounded up now, because if the US bombs Pakistan, it will be too late to put the genie back in the bottle.

Tony Blair has given the US a blank cheque. To Islam followers, we are now legitimate targets.

I hope I have shown enough evidence to convince people here there is a real problem with potential Islamic terrorists residing in our homeland. There are even a million unknown asylum seekers in our midst.

Ask your MP/Police what are they going to do to round them up! Answer NOTHING!

UnHappyExHeadOwner :(- ---<

Must say a big thanx to DVD-Reviewer Mods!

I was really surprised to see my thread still up!!!
No political correctness here, I may come again. ;)

My sister converted to islam about 12 years ago, and yes we were concerned at first. We did not know any muslims but had heard all the stories. She would have to walk behind him and would basicly be his slave. I am now ashamed of myself for having these views. We were wellcomed with open arms by her new family and instantly became part of theirs.

So a quick question HappyExHitachi505Owner ;-).

After you have rounded up my sister (who is English and white) and her children and the rest of my new family what are you going to do with them?

Andrew.

I was watching the broadcast on C4 (above link) at the time and have to say I was sickened by this mans comments and it is reassuring to know that his views do not reflect those of all Muslims in the western world.
I don`t normally condone violence but maybe if this man thinks that an attack on the perpetrator is an attack on himself then maybe we should drop the metaphorics and carry out an attack on him.
I realise that we live in a country with free speech and that everyone is entitled to their own opinions but some opinions are incredibly dangerous and although normally I do tend to court controversy, as a multi-cultural society that is already overwhelmed with racial tension we need to be incredibly wary of people this.

Just my opinion you understand....

To Andrew Bruce:

I`m very glad your sister is happy with her new spiritual path.

Of course she isn’t entitled to go to a Mosque as a man would, but then who said Women’s Rights and Islam were compatible?
Not I.
Your sister probably wasn’t of the bra-burning brigade.
Don’t bother to stand up to her husband is he wants to circumcise her!
The husband owns the little woman so your views as an infidel are irrelevant, sadly.

Does she wear a veil and all the other paraphernalia?
Did she have to convert in order to marry this man?

On the whole, Britain is a civilised country so if the worst scenario of internment/imprisonment really is played out (I hope we never get to it), rest assured your sister will be treated like a princess.
Of course had your sister been in Saudi Arabia / Iran / Iraq, your sister wouldn’t have the option to change her religion back.
Remember what they do to their Princesses? I do?
I have a picture of the blood sodden sand beneath her head to remind me! Perhaps your sister should have one too?

The stories you heard about `walking behind the camel` etc, are relevant, but only in some Arab countries. Very few eat sheep’s eyes either!
Most Arab countries are quite ignorant of what their neighbours get up to.
You see Islam is a very broad church. Who would think than the scantily clad ladies of Lebanon were of the same faith of those from Afghanistan.

I prefer UAE my self. You can get a couple of gorgeous girls and as much alcohol to drink for just £50 - the whole night!
Islam isnt always bad. ;)

This item was edited on Saturday, 15th September 2001, 16:16